This is a chat log of a couple of friends explaining wifi to me, and in particular the role of collisions and packet interference. I’d studied networks with collisions back in the day, but had come to think of that as something that no longer applies…
15:31 < treed> In the ideal situation for wifi, you have one station per AP, on non-overlapping channels
15:31 < treed> which in the best possible 2.4Ghz case gets you 3 stations
15:31 < treed> but the closer you can get to that ideal, the better
15:31 < rlpowell> "station"?
15:31 < treed> more APs and wire the fuck out of everything that can be wired
15:32 < treed> generic term for "thing speaking wifi"
15:32 < rlpowell> I'm sorry, are you telling me that the ideal ration of wifi consumer to WAP is 1:1 ?
15:32 < rlpowell> Because if not, I'm lost.
15:32 < treed> Absolutely.
15:32 < Tene> rlpowell: Yes; that will get you optimal performance
15:32 < treed> Having more than 1:1 means it has to share the air.
15:32 < treed> And sharing means collisions.
15:32 < rlpowell> OK, bear in mind that this is all magic to me.
15:33 < rlpowell> It what?
15:33 < treed> Remember how ethernet used to be before switches?
15:33 < rlpowell> I have one Ubiquiti with perhaps 6 consumers at any given time.
15:33 < treed> Where if one devices was talking, nothing else could talk?
15:33 < rlpowell> 25-15:33 < treed> Remember how ethernet used to be before switches? -- No.
15:33 < treed> That is also true of wireless.
15:33 < Tene> rlpowell: radio waves are a shared medium; remember how old ethernet hubs worked with collisions?
15:33 < treed> Oh, well, that's how it used to be.
15:33 < rlpowell> 'k.
15:33 < treed> One device could talk at a time
15:33 < treed> if something else tried to talk, they'd both bail out and wait
15:33 < rlpowell> I guess I vaaaaaaaguely remember that.
15:34 < treed> ~g CSMA-CD
15:34 < Sexymans> treed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_sense_multiple_access_with_collision_detection
15:34 < treed> That's what ethernet used to use
15:34 < treed> wifi uses CSMA-CA, but it's similar
15:34 < treed> Only one thing can be talking on a shared medium at the same time
15:34 < treed> otherwise you get interference
15:34 < treed> think about being in the car on like AM radio
15:35 < treed> and how if you're in between the locations of the radio stations, you'll get one or the other depending on like... where trees are and shit
15:35 < treed> whichever one is being blocked less gets to you
15:35 < treed> this applies to all radio
15:35 < rlpowell> I had no idea that wifi counted as a shared medium in this sense.
15:35 < treed> which is one reason the FCC regulates the airwaves
15:35 < rlpowell> 25-15:35 < treed> and how if you're in between the locations of the radio stations, -- Of two radio stations on the same frequency, you mean.
15:36 < treed> if everyone could just shit out anything they want on any frequency, you'd get... well you'd get wifi
15:36 < treed> rlpowell: Yes.
15:36 < rlpowell> OK.
15:36 < treed> Radio, TV, and wifi are all on the same EM spectrum
15:36 < treed> just different places
15:36 < rlpowell> So given that I *don't* want to spend $1000 on my home wifi, what do you suggest?
15:36 < treed> so the same physics apply to all of them, if a little differently depending on their wavelength
15:36 < treed> rlpowell: Best practical case is three APs on channels 1, 6, 11
15:36 < rlpowell> I have a ubiquiti, a bunch of WRT-54GLs, and this trendnet thing, but *exactly one* place that the ethernet cable can go to the upstairs.
15:36 < treed> spread out
15:37 < rlpowell> And all the consumers are upstairs.
15:37 < treed> and wire everything that you can
15:37 < treed> so send that one cable up to a switch
15:37 < treed> and then spread it out from there
15:37 < rlpowell> Yeah, basically I can't wire anything at all.
15:37 < rlpowell> There's no way to get the cables from RA's office to anywhere else.
15:37 < rlpowell> Come over for B5 and I'll show you what I mean. :P
15:38 < rlpowell> Like, it's certainly *possible*, but *ugh*.
15:38 < rlpowell> So we've been relying on wifi.
15:38 < treed> other option: Point-to-point high-bandwidth link between the two floors
15:38 < treed> and then ethernet from there
15:38 < treed> when IMVU was split between two buildings we had two pairs of point-to-point wifi connecting the buildings
15:38 < treed> with each side having its own ethernet network
15:38 < rlpowell> So the router is in the basement, and we run ethernet to RA's office.
15:39 < rlpowell> Everything else is wifi. In particular, the living room, RA's laptop, RJ's laptop, and my room.
15:39 < treed> So you have an upper floor ethernet network
15:39 < treed> and then do a PTP link that *only* bridges the upper network to the lower network
15:39 < rlpowell> No, that's the thing; there's no sane way to get cables from RA's office to anywhere else.
15:39 < treed> Yes
15:39 < treed> So put it on the ceiling of her office
15:39 < treed> Or is that on the top floor?
15:39 < rlpowell> Which, the WAP?
15:39 < rlpowell> her office is on the top floor.
15:39 < treed> Two WAPs
15:39 < treed> One on either side of a surface
15:39 < treed> pointed at each other
15:40 < rlpowell> Huh. OK. Why?
15:40 < treed> Next best thing to drilling a hole through the wall
15:40 < treed> You then only have one wifi link to care about
15:40 < treed> and you wire everything else
15:40 < rlpowell> I think we're miscommunicating. I'll show you the next time you come over.
15:40 < treed> k
15:40 < rlpowell> (i.e. your responses are not relating to what I believe I'm describing, so I'm giving up on text)
15:40 < treed> k
15:41 < rlpowell> treed: Ignoring that aspect of it, though: 3 WAPs on 1/6/11 ; would they be different SSIDs or bridged or what?
15:41 < treed> rlpowell: In general an answer to "I can't run a cable from point A to point B" is "so make a point-to-point wireless link"
15:41 < treed> Same SSID, and bridged.
15:42 < treed> Wifi clients will automatically get the strongest one and switch as necessary
15:42 < treed> if they have the same SSID
15:42 < treed> and security settings
15:42 < rlpowell> treed: "point-to-point wireless link" here means "a wap on each end with *no other job* than to talk to this specific other thing", yes?
15:42 < treed> Yes.
15:42 < treed> This thing talks to this thing, directionally. Nothing else talks to either thing on wireless, but they bridge two separate segments of wired network.
15:42 < rlpowell> And that's significantly better than having a bunch of clients on one WAP, I imagine.
15:43 < treed> You can actually buy directional antennas that work better for this specific purpose.
15:43 < rlpowell> Because I can *do* that; I've got lie 3 WRT54GLs lying around.
15:43 < rlpowell> Oh?
15:43 < treed> Right.
15:43 < treed> Yeah, most WAP antennas are omnidirecitonal
15:43 < treed> but you can buy aftermarket antennas
15:43 < treed> including extra gain
15:43 < rlpowell> *nod*
15:43 < rlpowell> That seems like worth doing for my room, for example.
15:43 < treed> (which may actually contravene FCC rules depending on how you do it)
15:43 < rlpowell> Because that's the one place in the house where the internet *has to* work, and it routinely doesn't. -_-
15:44 < treed> But, if they're just on the other side of the wall from each other, you can probably get away with stock antennas.
15:44 < rlpowell> hahahah no.
15:44 < treed> So if you have three extra WAPS, you have A))~~~~((B-----C-))
15:44 < rlpowell> Well what i was specifically thinking of is dedicating 2 WAPs just to my room.
15:45 < rlpowell> For each end of that connection.
15:45 < treed> where ((()) is wifi, ~~ is a wireless connection, and -- is wired
15:45 < rlpowell> Yeah.
15:45 < treed> or C can be a regular switch
15:45 < treed> plugged into desktops and whatnot
15:45 < rlpowell> The annoying part is that the WRT54GLs are 802.11g. :P
15:45 < treed> yeah
15:45 < treed> But a better signal at a lower speed is probably preferable to shit signal of whatever speed.
15:45 < rlpowell> True dat.
15:45 < treed> also I've found that WRT54GLs can't do gigabit ethernet very well either
15:46 < rlpowell> But now that I've got this trendnet thingy I could burn that to fixing up my room.
15:46 < rlpowell> treed: I don't think anything I have does gigabit.
15:46 < treed> wat
15:46 < treed> Is everything you own from the 90s?
15:46 < rlpowell> The reason I care about N in my room is that sometimes we do steam in-home streaming.
15:47 < rlpowell> treed: "actually is doing gigabit in practice"; I'm sure it's mostly capable of doing so.
15:47 < treed> Ah.
15:47 < rlpowell> My ethernet cables probably *are* from the 90s. :D
15:47 < treed> s/does/needs/
15:47 < rlpowell> I thought you needed cat 6 for gigabit?
15:47 < rlpowell> Like I didn't think gigabit would just work; ithoughty ou needed special shit.
15:47 < Tene> Nope
15:48 < treed> nope
15:48 < treed> cat 5e is totally sufficient for gigabit
15:48 < treed> you need 6 for 10G
15:48 < rlpowell> Huh.
15:48 < rlpowell> TIL.
15:48 < treed> Yeah, gigabit is old as balls now dude
15:48 < rlpowell> Maybe I'm thinking 10G then?
15:48 < treed> Nothing should do less than gigabit.
15:48 < treed> You probably are.
15:48 < rlpowell> That would explain this conversation a lot.
15:48 < treed> Well, nothing wired should do less than gigabit.
15:48 < treed> 40Gb is a thing now
15:49 < treed> And 100Gb is coming if not already here
15:49 < treed> We just deployed 10Gb network shit at IMVU.
15:49 < rlpowell> 25-15:48 < treed> 40Gb is a thing now -- Goo lord.
15:49 < rlpowell> treed: This has been a hugely informative discussion, thank you.
15:49 < treed> NP
15:49 < treed> rlpowell: We actually use 40Gb in production too
15:49 < treed> but just for cross-connection between the two core switches
15:49 < rlpowell> WRT interference: I guess I think of clients as being "consumers" if you will.
15:49 < treed> I think it's actually a pair of 40Gb links
15:50 < treed> rlpowell: That would be true if you never had to send data.
15:50 < treed> TV/radio are definitely producer/consumer
15:50 < treed> but all wifi stations talk
15:50 < rlpowell> Going to expand on that in a minute.
15:54 < rlpowell> So I guess my intuitive sense is that each client is talking seperately to the WAP?
15:54 < rlpowell> Because they're each in a different direction.
15:54 < treed> Ah.
15:54 < rlpowell> But what I'm hearing you say is that whichever one is talking loudest wins because physics.
15:54 < treed> That's kinda how it works with MIMO.
15:55 < rlpowell> I'm visualizing a pool of water and imagining signalling someone by making waves, and it's fairly obvious there that if two of us are talking at once we're fucked.
15:55 < treed> MIMO is a thing that became available as of N, where it'll actually have multiple distinct antennas for talking to different devices.
15:55 < treed> Yup.
15:55 < rlpowell> Yeah, that ... explains a lot.
15:55 < rlpowell> So like my dropbox, which is a constant-communication sort of thing, could fuck other people's ability to do anything just because it keeps talking all the time.
15:56 < treed> Everything is talking all the time, but yeah.
15:56 < rlpowell> And TCP is bi-directional, so that alone could explain why it all goes to shit when the girls watch something on netflix.
15:56 < treed> CSMA-CA means that the wifi card will be watching
15:56 < treed> trying to wait for the pool to be still
15:56 < rlpowell> Like we were doing OK-ish and then you added one more talker and suddenly the pool is *never* still.
15:56 < treed> so it'll buffer up a little bit and then send
15:56 < treed> so it's not as bad as it could be
15:56 < treed> (The CA there stands for "carrier avoidance", as opposed to the mere "carrier detection" that 802.3 (ethernet) did)
15:57 < rlpowell> You get that this convo implies that basically everyone is doing wifi wrong, yeah?
15:57 < treed> Yup.
15:57 < rlpowell> Like every office I've ever been in has 20:1 or more wifi ratios.
15:57 < rlpowell> (why the fuck do my fingers keep typing "rations"? :P )
15:57 < treed> This also explains why my apartment has the best goddamn wifi.
15:57 < treed> I get 80Mbit to my couch.
15:57 < rlpowell> :D
15:57 < treed> or more
15:57 < treed> I can pull from steam at 11-12MB/sec
15:57 < treed> It'll actually be better soon too
15:58 < treed> Since I got my SRX-240 configured and running, I can now move the switch I had in my closet out to the TV stand
15:58 < treed> and wire up the PS4, TV, and Chromecast
15:58 < treed> which removes three things from my wifi
15:58 < rlpowell> *nod*
15:58 < treed> Regarding 20:1 on office wifi: Yuuuuuup
15:58 < treed> Notably
15:58 < treed> When I'm at home, sitting around doing nothing, my phone uses like no power
15:58 < treed> but a day of sitting around doing nothing at the office will eat like half the battery
15:58 < treed> because it has to use so much more power on the wifi
15:58 < rlpowell> Because it's spending all its time fi.. yeah.
15:59 < rlpowell> Fuck I have learned so much in this conversation. :D
15:59 < treed> :D
15:59 < treed> So, I lucked out when I got my current place
15:59 < rlpowell> Do you mind if I save it off somewhere web-accessible for future editing?
15:59 < rlpowell> (i.e. do you care if this is on the web verbatim for now?)
15:59 < treed> it actually has a switching panel in the closet with 4 ethernet jacks that go to different places
15:59 < treed> Nah, go for it.